Dissecting The Five Brain Neuroscience Model With Carlos Davidovich
Carlos Davidovich joins Tom Dardick to discuss issues related to his Five Brain neuroscience model. Their conversation ranges from AI technology, the human brain, and the heart's role in storing information. They explore the implications of AI on trust in video content and the limitations of the reptilian brain. They discuss the potential impacts of heart transplants on personality and cognitive function, the connection between gut health and overall well-being, and the negative impact of the 'inner critic'. Carlos also shares about his website and invites viewers to reach out for deeper discussions on his unique concept.
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Dissecting The Five Brain Neuroscience Model With Carlos Davidovich
In this episode, it’s my pleasure to welcome Carlos Davidovich to the show. Carlos is a neuroscientist, medical practitioner, and executive coach. He helps people get past the pressures and stresses that they have to live a more fulfilled life to be more effective. We get into some things that are near and dear to my heart as it relates to the kinds of things that hold us back. I'm very much happy to have Carlos on the show. You're going to get a lot from what he has to say. With no further ado, let me welcome Carlos to the show.
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Carlos, I understand you're originally from Argentina.
Yes. I don't know if you have the chance to be there.
I've not been to Argentina but I listened to Javier, the President of Argentina, who gave a speech at the WEF. I can't understand your native language but the reason it came to my attention is they had an AI-translated version that spoke in his natural English voice and translated his speech, including his lip movements and everything. It’s an amazing piece of technology to hear his speech like that. You can't believe a single thing you see on video anymore.
We need to be aware of that because that's our life.
It goes against our instincts. We've been trained to trust video and trust our eyes and ears. We're going to have to make some changes a little bit.
We need to do internal training on that to understand what's going on and tell the brain what's going on.
One of the things that got me excited to talk to you is your background in neuroscience and then applied it in an executive coaching field. You have a relatively new book that came out, Five Brain Leadership. What I gather the wisdom of that is recognizing that there's biology involved in our behavior. We better pay attention if we want to get a full handle on it. Would you like to give us the broad brushstrokes of how you came about this concept of the Five Brain Leadership and how it's applied?
Five Brain Leadership: How Neuroscience Can Help You Master Your Instincts and Build Better Teams
I was involved in coaching but first, I practiced medicine and went to business as well. I worked in business for twenty years. Let's put it this way. At one moment, I started to understand how to observe our different personalities. We have different characters inside. It’s different voices they're talking to us but in a different language or style with different objectives.
When I started observing that that happens to all of us, in one moment, I started connecting those. The only credit I can take is connecting those. The rest is already there or it's on the internet. You can find it on Google. I started connecting those characters with specific areas of our brain. I’ll end this by talking about our internal team. All of us should lead our internal team with this character.
I represented different brains. In the evolution, nature didn't replace the brain. It was adding one over the other, the traditional layers. It is all intertwined. We talk about an adaptive brain. That was the name of the game. In evolution, first was the reptilian brain, the most primitive one, and then survival reaction, fight, flight, or freeze. It’s the oldest in the team. It’s 500 million years with us.
The second one is the one that we inherited. We can call the human brain the headquarters of emotions. Emotions are there. We know there are positive emotions and negative emotions. The newbie in the block is the rational brain, even though it took us so far from our beginning. In the way we know it with 50,000 years against 500 million, it’s nothing. That has a concrete consequence.
The consequence is the one that we trust the most is our instinctual brain. That has pros and cons. We know that if we are still alive in the civilization, thanks to the survival reaction. It is not helping all the time. Let's say in business and organization human behaviors, you see this confrontational conversation or difficult conversation. You can identify who is talking from each side.
For me, that was fascinating because at the moment you can recognize that, then you can know how to deal with that. Remember that the most primitive brain has very basic laws. Number one is a zero-sum game. “I win or lose.” There's no win-win deal for the reptilian brain. The second is very contagious. At the moment it's activated, we activate others unless you can keep it in control.
The oldest part of our brain, the reptilian brain, is associated with our fight, flight, or freeze instinct. What you're saying is it isn't a capacity to distinguish between layers of complexity. It's either going to be, “I win or lose,” and it's only seeing through that lens.
It's so clever that they can hijack the rational brain. What I was trying to say is say there are two people having an intense conversation. When you listen to the content, you’re like, “That's right,” but what is behind is the reptilian brain managing the conversation and trying to beat the other, trying to win, not to arrive at an agreement or consensus. It's not on the table. That's why in my coaching practice, I say, “Take care of which one of the people working with you is talking because then you need to deal in a different way.”
The reptilian brain always gets in the way of the rational brain. It tries not to get to an agreement or consensus.
They may not be aware of that part of themselves that they're giving voice to or leaning on.
There is one important concept of how the brain works. At the moment the reptilian brain is activated, the brain will deactivate the rational brain. At the moment that you are in attack or defense mode, it is very hard for you to listen or analyze any rational concept properly.
Is that because in a crisis, speed is of the essence? We need resources to react quickly.
Exactly. Remember, the reptilian brain is the fastest one. Let's say there are areas 1 and 2 if you like that. The rational brain is very slow. In an emergency, it will take it away. The point is that sometimes, even though we are not in an emergency, we still behave like that. It is when we cannot understand or arrive at the right conclusion.
I've heard you talked about a good amount between the reptilian, mammalian, and neocortex, those three. What I have not heard is your model of the five. We've got a couple more here. How do we start incorporating those?
When I studied medicine, I didn't study that we have neurons and brain cells in our hearts. The heart has concrete cells that are the same as the ones we have in the brain. We still don't know exactly what that means but what we then know is that the heart is not just pumping blood. It has a different purpose, let's say. In many languages, there are common sayings. For instance, in English, “When we know something very well, we know it by heart.” “What are you talking about?” “The heart is storage and information.” “Maybe, yes.”
That is an instinct we have to think in those terms, like somatic knowledge that's built into our bodies. What happens in the case of somebody who has an artificial heart? Do they lose that capacity?
What is missing when somebody has an artificial heart? Not too many people but will turn more and more. In people who receive a new heart, like a transplant from another human being, 20% of their personality changes. Also, food taste. A group of researchers in the United States found out the new characteristics were the characteristics of the donor. It's fascinating. They not only send the information to the big brain and say, “We function in this way.” If you think that way, what could happen if a person receives an artificial heart or a heart from any animal that is not human? That's why I said let's start with a question. The answer is we don't know.
There's a lot more than we have to go than we know most in every field. That's for sure.
We need to be very humble.
The older I get, the more I realize that I need to remain in the question more and be less declarative and more inquisitive.
The brain number five become very popular. It is the one that we have in our guts. The gut-brain is very popular because first of all, more information is coming to the world. It has a complete nervous system. We know how much our digestive system is connected with our emotions. We don't feel good in the digestive system and vice versa. It's double-circuit. We also know that serotonin is connected with what we call happiness, a good mood. The production is 95%, which is in our gut. The gut manages a lot of our emotions. There are a lot of gut diseases that are connected to how we feel from an emotional point of view. There’s a close connection with it.
What I'm wondering is whether the practitioners who are dealing with a holistic approach are focused on gut health. In 2023, I went to a nutritionist firm. They did a whole battery of tests. They took me off gluten, eggs, and dairy. I did that from June 2023 to November 2023, and it did change a bunch of things. They also gave me some supplements too.
The idea is that our digestive system, our guts, are colonies of beings. It’s thousands, hundreds, millions, or billions of different kinds that need to work in harmony and be in balance. When we're feeding different types of chemicals that have who knows what aspect to them, we're getting all these effects that we don't want.
It might be food sources that we're not used to. Things like preservatives and things in modern food production to preserve food probably don't do well for some of our gut bacteria and the flora there. It becomes a big challenge to manage our digestive system health. What you're saying is that it affects all aspects of our lives, not just how we might be feeling from being sick but right down to how we think and feel.
It's not about the gut-brain. It is what is inside our gut. In medicine, we talk about a new organ. It’s something I didn't study when I studied medicine. This organ is around 4 pounds of bacteria. You sell it perfectly. They're alive. I don't want to be dramatic but they're in charge of many things. If we don't treat them well, they can affect our lives in many ways, emotionally and physically. They decide which disease we are going to express. It's mind-blowing. I read a lot about it because I'm very interested in this.
The gut is in charge of many systems in the body. Emotionally and physically, it decides which disease we will express.
My mind is spinning. What I'm talking about is seeing our personal power. What you're saying is we need to be in concert with the systems within us, be respectful of those things, and understand that we are part of a whole that is not a singular thing. We talked about humility and being in the question but to me, that puts a whole other level of the importance of humility and being open to what our body's telling us and what we're learning. What's your advice to people? If you could put something on a billboard that everybody in the world would see, what are those messages that you wish more people would appreciate?
First of all, if we talk about pure health, let's not panic. Be mindful that we are a very complex system with a lot of active beings in our bodies. In the end, the goal is how to keep the system in good harmony, emotionally. No doubt, it is number one. We know that if we take care of our food, we can have a better life. It’s the way to feed these bacteria. This is the concept of probiotics, prebiotics, and all this stuff. It's not complicated. I hate to complicate our life even more than it is. I try to help to make it easier.
Five Brain Neuroscience Model: If we take care of our food to feed this bacteria, we can have a better life, and it is not that complicated.
If we're talking about medical things, take a probiotic every day. It's one capsule and will help a lot. That's it. Be mindful of that. There are a lot of passions regarding food, keto diets, vegetarian, or vegan. I'm very respectful of all of them but I already learned, based on my medical knowledge, that all of them can help. None of them is the panacea. It depends on you. There's no one formula for everyone. It's not one size fits all. That is not true. We need to be mindful of who we are in the way we react and what kind of food is good for us. The information is there. It's not complicated but please, let's start paying attention to that.
One of the things that I gathered from looking at your website and some of the things that you do is you help people, especially at the executive level, with the pressures and stresses. I'm thinking about the pressures and stresses of modern life. Probably, it tends to throw us out of balance in the way that we're talking. We need to be elegant as it relates to how we manage the expectations of ourselves and those around us. My guess is that you have some insights along those lines as it relates to this model. I'd like to go there if we could.
The word that comes to my mind, triggered by you, is compassion, which starts from myself. This is not a cliché but I coach many people. For most of them, their worst enemy is this famous inner critic. It's an inner voice that is all the time holding us back. It’s a highly self-demanding personality. “I should always do more. I cannot take care of myself.” When I explain to them what exactly that voice is, you should see the faces. Their eyes changed and even the way they moved, their body language.
Pay attention to that inner narrative that is not helping. It's good to say, “I want to do more and have a healthy ambition.” I'm there but most of the time, it's too much in this world. “That depends on the outside, how the outside world is pressing on me.” No. It's me pressing on me. That's why I say to be compassionate with us because that's the only way to start being compassionate with others.
With that inner critic that you mentioned, what I was thinking is, isn't that oftentimes an expression of ego? It can be a defense mechanism for the ego that says we're holding to some false or if not false, an adopted standard that is not true to our full authentic self. We're taking a standard in and putting ego into that saying, “This is the standard that I come to.” Maybe that inner critic is that voice that's comparing those two different things. Is that a dynamic that you see and address it all? Do you have a different lens to look through?
I like your concept. I never connected the ego with the inner voice but now that you explain it, I like it. I understand it in this way. The ego wants to show itself all the time but for that, you need to do a lot. I always analyze the inner critic as saying to my clients, “That is not you. That is the values that you have inside.” First, let's detach from that voice. Also, the voice is blind. That voice got into us when we were very young.
It's something that we let get in based on the interaction of our personality and family. That's the origin of the whole story. The inner critic is there and stays there forever but it's always repeating the same narrative. It's like a broken record. The moment you can identify this, you start taking the power back. Don't give the power to that voice because it's not your friend. It's not helping.
It can be a little tricky because there's nothing wrong with aspirations, wanting to hit a standard, and wanting to be better tomorrow than we are today. Part of the uphill climb is where we get our meaning and what fulfills our life. It’s that compassion piece that you point to be your friend along the journey. Don't sit there and pull yourself back down the hill with self-rejection.
My question to my clients is, “How many times did that voice stop you from doing something that you wanted to do?” “Many times.” The voice always says, “No, you can't. You're not able.” If the voice says, “You can do it. Go and try,” fantastic. It doesn't matter if it’s going to happen, yes or no. Please, take care of who you are and then have the processes to try to be in control. The healthy part like, “I’m compassionate and ambitious. I want to know more,” that's fine.
That is fantastic but are you embracing yourself? Are you taking care of yourself? That's one of my power questions. What do you do to take care of yourself? Give me a concrete example. I don't care if it's a gym that you enjoy and you're dying for that. You're killing yourself. It could be a sauna or food. Tell me about those moments when you are taking care of yourself. Sometimes, I stopped because they could not bring it up. “I do these things for others. Let’s do it. I love it. What about you?”
This conversation is hitting me hard in the sense that you can't see the words on the model here behind me. The black part, where the pupil is, is the layer of the model I call The Four Corruptions, which holds us in place. This inner critic can come from any of those four perspectives. We've identified the same things.
We might have different words for it or different ways to look at it but it's the same basic thing that says, “You are not qualified or worthy. It's too much of a risk. I don't know what to do.” It’s all these sorts of things that hold us in place. We're voluntarily giving away our power because we're listening to that inner voice. To me, it's one of the biggest tragedies and feelings of shame in the world that that voice has so much traction with people.
I like to use the word power because the real meaning of power is the capacity to do so, not the ability to do it. “I have power so I can do it,” not more in the social power. “I'm able to do it if I have power.” In that sense, many times they see how people give the power for free to others or the inner voice for nothing. I say, “What are you doing?”
What do you think that's about? There are ideas out there in the world that actively take away individual power. They're like viruses or almost vampiric. They feed on the energy. What can we, as individuals, do about it to make sure that we're as protected from those forces as we can be?
I like to start from the same place. Be aware of what's going on. Awareness is number one. The second one is to stop playing the victim. It is not helping. Playing the victim is giving 100% of the power to others. When somebody comes to me or in my coaching practice saying, “This guy did XYZ to me,” I say, “He can do whatever. Tell me about the impact on you. That's what is important.” If you feel like, “Pull me,” you left the door open to that stuff. Take the power back. I have different tools so when they say, “That guy there,” my question is, “What did you do to solve it? Tell me about your actions. Do you want to keep crying? Let’s pray together but it's not solving the problem.”
Let's learn how to empower ourselves. In business, we talk a lot in organizations about how to empower the team. That is the same concept. Let’s empower ourselves in the way that we have control. If that means they can do whatever, the answer is no, or will I be able to reach whatever I want, that is not true. It’s lies. Life has limitations. I have limitations. Don't tell me that I didn't try. That is the consequence.
One of the things I talk a lot about with the Eye of Power community is the idea of marshaling our unique gifts. You may not be the smartest, best-looking, or most talented person but we take up the things that you are good at. In that specific combination, there is nobody that brings that particular basket of goodies to the party than you as an individual. We each have whatever that is.
It seems to me that the path to most of our power is to find those things like awareness. Explore ourselves in that way. Find that inventory and uniqueness. Develop it. Put that to the best service to others to contribute. That's the path that gets us free of some of these things that we're pointing to. Do you see it that way? Can you add to that?
It reminds me of one quote from Oscar Wilde. “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” I love it. He’s a genius. Let's go back to your comment. I give workshops on neuroscience and the daily situation in business. One is about a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. It’s the concept developing at Stanford for a woman with kids and what they teach their kids. A growth mindset doesn't mean I can do whatever. It means I have the power to try whatever.
When I taught that workshop, I said, “There is a trick here that you need to be aware of. Stop comparing yourself with others in a judgmental way.” A growth mindset means, “I always can be better than myself.” Maybe I want to play tennis. I will become Djokovic or Nadal. Of course, not. I don't have that character but I can be better than me. I can improve myself. I can benchmark with others but not in a judgmental way. Stop judging who is better and worse. You can learn from everyone but the focus is on how much you are improving and not comparing.
Stop judging which person is better or worse. You can learn from everyone. Focus on how much you are improving.
There's a sector in the model based on comparison. Comparison can be a trap. There are eight billion people. There's going to be somebody ahead of you if you're going to start measuring yourself against, others so what's the point of that? At the very minimum, it's a waste of your energy to do that. We want to be better stewards.
To wrap up our conversation, the theme that's emerging to me is to be respectful of ourselves as a dynamic system, meaning it's growing, alive, and moving. We're not at this fixed point, singularity, specific stuck idea, or this label that you put on us. It's much more way better than that. To me, it's good news. “I'm this identity. Give me these five labels and that's who I am.” That's dead compared to what you are.
I love your energy and what you're saying. I buy it.
We're birds of a feather on that. We help people in this way and try to inspire them to move in that. If somebody wants to get more of the Five Brain Leadership or be able to connect with you and get more of what you can do for folks, what would you say they should do?
My website is my name and last name, CarlosDavidovich.com. On LinkedIn, my profile is there. They can write to me or contact me at any time. I will be delighted to have any conversation with people who want to go deeper into this concept.
Carlos, thanks so much for being with me. I've very much enjoyed our conversation. We are brothers from another mother in terms of what we talked about. I always love meeting people who have a giving heart like that. Thank you so much.
It’s my pleasure. It's my honor to be in your show. Thanks a lot.
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Thank you so much, Carlos. I very much appreciated you being with me and enjoyed the conversation immensely. What your Five Brain Leadership does is it takes into account that we are more complicated than what first meets the eye. Our perceptions and the way that we behave are not just a function of what happens to be in our head but it is a whole-body proposition.
The more we learn about that, the more we respect that and take that into account, the more powerful we are because we can make higher quality decisions, paying more attention to the things that can either throw us off or the things that are causing us to be thrown off. That's the way that the medical field and professional development field are moving. It's nice to have somebody who's a practitioner at the cutting edge of this thought to learn from.
One of the stunning things to me is that 20% of the people who have had organ transplants take on different personality characteristics. That's a wow thing to think about. Ninety-five percent of our serotonin production is in our guts. They think about gut health and watch our behavior as it relates to our diet, movement, and those sorts of things. Also, what we take in and what we're exposed to. How that very much reflects our level of satisfaction, joy, and happiness is all one related thing.
Ignore or mistreat any aspect of it and that's where problems come in. That one knowledge piece alone and a little bit of taking that into account as we approach each day and the decisions we make on a daily basis gives us the opportunity to elevate the quality of our decisions and thus the quality of our lives. Thanks so much for being with Carlos and me. I very much love the conversation. I love to hear your feedback. If you found something useful and helpful, let me know. Thanks again for reading.
Important Links
LinkedIn - Carlos Davidovich
About Carlos Davidovich
As a Medical Doctor, TEDx Speaker and international Executive Coach, Carlos Davidovich has a unique insight into what makes us tick.
Raised and educated in Argentina, Carlos draws upon his medical background and understanding of the brain to provide a unique coaching experience to top business leaders and organisations, all based on neuroscience.
He is the author of 'Five Brain Leadership' (2023) and 'Personality DNA' (2022) and currently resides in Madrid, Spain.